Shalom, Salam Alaykoum were fellow sciencers, it is I, Aaron Freeman, not a scientist
but a sciency optimist and here I am today with my ace buddy the Sultan of
sociology professor Ahmad Sadro professor of world Islam - Islamic world studies at
Lake Forest College here in beautiful Lake County just north of Chicago. Good
to see you brother! Nice to be here. So the question of the day is: Why does the kingdom
of Saudi Arabia create and support so much terrorism?
first of all there's a gigantic assumption in that question which is
that Saudi Arabia DOES create and support a bunch of terrorism. Is that a
fair assumption to make? To begin a discussion it is the word terrorism is
is thrown around by various countries every stage calls the operators they
don't like terrorists and so it's kind of a term of abuse but terrorism has a
very specific meaning and in that sense Saudi Arabia could be said to be the
greatest sponsor of terrorism in the exact sense of the world then other
countries accused of it for instance Iran could ever hope to be
can you okay it is an exact meaning in sociological terms yes yes so terrorism
basically what it means is attacks on civilians to score political points and
it applies to groups such as al-qaeda and its franchises most of them are
giving in in Syria Gepetto Nostra for instance or a Gershon
or in Africa Boko Haram and you know groups like that Isis let's not forget
let's not forget the atomic state there are these are all are kind of franchises
and their ideology their kind of Islam that they stopped
type 2 because this is religious terrorism the kind of Islam we subscribe
to without exception is Wahhabi Islam that
is propagated only by Saudi Arabia in our world there is another state that is
Wahhabi Qatar and the categories are kind of have been allies of Saudis in
the past but there are the tensions and definitely they don't do the kind of
propagation of this ideology and the support in both material and military
terms of these terrorist organizations in in Syria that said that the Saudi
Arabia has been engaged and cannot be match for anybody else
they have also spread this ideology this kind of death cult ideology of Wahhabism
around the Islamic world using their petrol dollars and they respond this
kind of terrorism in Pakistan that eventually turned into Taliban that took
over Afghanistan and all the way from Indonesia to Tunisia and into Europe and
even the United States they send these missionaries and they say this kind of
heralds of their version of Islam that is Wahhabi Islam not not not of people
Mohave is a terrorist but every top every terrorist is Allah
so now what we were saying is that the Kingdom the KSA I love referring to them
is the KSA they are they support a particular Wahhabi is kind of Islam I
know you what are you saying that it is because of the Wahhabi version of Islam
and that Saudi Arabia is in the thrall of the Wahhabi version that is why we
end up seeing so much so many of the groups with connections to to Saudi
Arabia because most mahom ISM is a kind of an interpretation of Islam that is a
perfect culture for terrorism it is revivalist is too mechanical and
it has this fundamental expectation of going back to the origin of Islam which
is in the you know seventh century the place that is now occupied by Saudi
Arabia the country itself is only 86 years old only two years or three years
older than the king of the of the land Salman is a recent invention but in that
place we find that it was the origin of Islam and and the pretension is that
they want to live like people who lived at that time and in that time the Arabia
was a very tribal place full of tribal warfare and valorising the violence and
and this kind of either you are with us or you're against us kind of this
Manichean ideology and this is a perfect match for all kinds of terroristic
activities and is no accident that terrorists in the Islamic world Islamist
terrorists have gravitated to Baja BISM and they have not gravitated to any
other traditional form of Islam when they're Sunni Islamic Islam now our
bodily growth points out that the revivalist impure tentacles sounds
familiar yes so yeah those are those could be
very dangerous ideas because you can you could have a Christian is very much like
we use the word Islamist you can you can weaponize Christianity Judaism Hinduism
any one of them could be weaponized I've been working eyes it to become the creed
of terrorists and we all know you want to do away with the traditional
interpretations and this kind of puritanical and and revivalist attitude
is a perfect match for that kind of desire to weaponize a religion but so
there are certainly religious fundamentalists all over the joint
certainly they're religious fundamentalists and even uh you know
elliptic fundamentalism in the United States but we only see in from coming
from so so how is from Saudi Arabia we see a version that is much more
evangelical II violent why Saudi Arabia why there why be there money you know
what hobby with States around why Saudi Arabia there is only one other hobbies
stake around and that's Qatar are there other Muslim countries none of
them are Wahabi they're that version of Islam Wahhabism it's very much against
traditional Islam and their pretension is that they are the true Muslims and
everybody else has deviated from the true path and so they are very zealot in
in propagating their ideology and as you said when when you have this kind of
this is not a good combination it's kind of about the witches brew if you want to
turn a religion into a perfect culture for terrorism this kind of puritanical
attitude this kind of revivalist attitude this kind of attitude that that
overturns a thousand years of it 1400 years of tradition in favor of a kind of
a new understanding of religion that is really a dangerous idea and it has
proven to be a perfect match for those who desire to turn Islam into a death
cult into a terroristic ideology okay but Saudi Arabia is a wealthy state it
is a wealthy state it is a relatively well-educated certainly the men are
relatively well educate and I guess as I understand it a good percentage of the
people who are getting online degrees are Saudi women so are you saying
there's nothing unique about Saudi culture in particular that it's merely
that's how the culture is dominated by this Wahhabi version of Islam that's the
bright line it's the Wahhabi version of well the Wahhabi version of Islam is the
state cult it's a state religion in Saudi Arabia it doesn't follow that all
the Saudis are wahabis indeed we have Shiites in Saudi Arabia that are great
wine yes there is a great Shiite minority in Saudi Arabia that are that
is greatly under the oppression of the of the Saudi state and and you know they
are discriminated against so once this is kind of like a historical accident
that this particular tribe that dominates Saudi Arabia the House of Saud
became Wahab became under the influence of this reformer Mohammed Abdel Wahab
and they happen to be the group we had befriended by Lawrence of Arabia who
basically got them to revolt against the Ottomans in return for sovereignty and
so basically they they got to rule the whole country and another bonus that
they got was to call the country after their own tribe at that time in 1932
when Saudi Arabia became independent and Herbert Hoover was a president the
United States now was this but we can learn some a rib Arabian yes okay so now
you know the other number are a good buddy Nikki just tweeted yeah really
really interesting point about back to the good ol days because there was a
time when if you wanted to be studying you some science you had to be hidden to
you a Muslim country that Baghdad was the place for science and if the Wow if
you could I can easily imagine a version of nostalgia nostalgic Islam for the
back in the good old days that would say let us embrace the 800s through the
through 11 up til 1100 and embrace the great scientific history of our people
we the stars were named for mostly the
stars in the sky have Islam over Arab names so why is it then the old timers
didn't look back to the 9th century for their inspiration of the good old days
well Muslim reformers wanted to kind of ask this coin sir the question why have
we muslims lagged behind Europe there was a great deal of nostalgia for the
age of Renaissance of Islam 8th century to 11th 12th century as you as you
mentioned and this is the time when Islamic world is really their font of
human civilization and where Europe is in the depth of its Dark Ages and in
fact I hope I meet but that is what one of the to this very day to this day the
reason you and I are able to talk is because of an algorithm that an Arabic
word algebra this is an Arabic word this the sciences as we know them are
overwhelmed by the good old days in Islam yes I think we should have
actually another conversation about that that age of the islamic renaissance that
gave us algorithm al algebra alcohol and and the great strides muslims made in
mathematics you know the greeks were great at geometry but their greek math
was not great because they didn't have the concept of zero and they had because
of the negative numbers and so muslims adopted this from the indians and they
combined the greek the indian the chinese and the indigenous islamic
science philosophy and and and literature to create this kind of great
ferment of of islamic enlightenment okay so you get this mythical as Mali's
enormous 11 back to that what is our wrath looking at the Islamic
civilization they considered Islamic civilization a deviation of the original
is found in desert Islamic prophet Muhammad before you know
400 500 years before there this Renaissance of Islam they want to go
back to the kind of imaginary delusion of simplicity of Islam that they can
never actually access okay so I guess I'm I guess what I wanted what kind of
going here is that I think that there I assume that there is something unique
about Saudi culture and particularly let's say that the the WA Hobbes are a
Saudi a part of Saudi culture that lives even to this day in the set the center
of the country the niche where there they have they have no access to the sea
and I guess so my what I really want to say is that it's not their fault
I'm want to say okay this is me what do you want all right
but it's not their fault because they did the the WA Hobbes live in the center
of the culture was innocent of the country totally completely utterly
landlocked and they don't get input from other cultures so that they are you know
like the the Philistines Palestinians who were a seafaring culture and saw
everybody and met all kinds of other people and certainly in in Iran and
certainly in the South Iran where there was a big infusion of lots of different
cultures and this curious sociologist is that a part of the explanation for the
kind of literalist literary obsession with the with the hops in the niche well
you know this guy's geographical and climatic illogical argument for me one
of me again I know you are now I'm not dismissing that I I actually want to
agree with you that as part of the explanation we can leave out the climate
we can leave out their economic way of life and we can't leave out access to
the to the outside world as elements in the great mix of causes that create a
particular cultural situation with the Wahhabis one can really argue that this
desert interpretation of any religion mostly not basically I would say the
lack of agriculture and dependence on trade and warfare and husbandry that
really does have a great effect on a culture because when you don't have
agriculture basically you don't have the participation of women with husbandry
travel warfare and trade men control the economy and the female an influence
actually goes down approaches zero in areas where you have more agriculture it
is more participation economic role of the women and religion of these areas
will not be as harsh and as discriminatory and as patriarchal and as
violent so I would say yes climate has something to say about this and the
environment but let us not forget that the historical accidents are also very
important the fact that this particular tribe was persuaded by Mohammed Abu
Lahab to follow his way of interpretation of Islam where as he was
dismissed and kicked out by other tribes whom he tried to convert this particular
tribe accepted this and they happen to be the tribe he was that was befriended
by their by the British and if that had not happened this we would not really
have this situation so yes the climate and the geography is important but but
they are not determining factors all right now this is a really interesting
point in the blink brings up can you talk a little about
the difference between the sheer Shiite Sunni and Shiite Sunni and Wahhabi
that's a very interesting distinction I think please expand sir yes so the first
Shiite and Sunni is basically it's a debate over succession of Prophet
Muhammad it's not a really theological debate that you have between Orthodox
Church and the Catholic Church or Catholic and Protestant churches it is
not theological it is historical and it was a succession debate who should
succeed Prophet Muhammad that is where sharks only split
starts the Sharia the interpretation of law is really not that different between
Shiites and Sunnis and theology is not that different
the main difference really was a political difference going back to 6:23
the Prophet Muhammad died and the debate over who should succeed him he was
little airmailed in here Shia means fall apart yes because they
were the followers of Ali nephew and son-in-law Prophet Muhammad and suppose
to Sonny which is the followers of tradition there are the people in him or
in his Sunnah means tradition right traditional so you basically have
tradition on these verses verses followers and this is the split that
occurred after the Prophet Muhammad the father a successor and the traditional
is argued whatever the community agreed upon that person should be basically the
tribal horse trading that led to the election of Abu Bakr and then Omar and
Othman before any God to have his turn as the mastcam if they believed that
those four caliphs caliphs Orhan EFA's are the rightly guided leaders after
prophet mohammed these four leaders the Shiites believe that the last one Ali
should have been the first and the first three are actually the usurpers
but mojave is basically waha is a new form of revivalism that split
off of Sunni Islam one of the four schools within the Sunni Islam called
Hana Oh Carl called Hanafy Muslims I'm sorry called Han many Muslims and
he's a radicalized form of Sunni Islam and that rejects traditionalism whether
you know that this there traditionalism of traditionalist Muslim the Sunni
Muslims but also it Anathem Isis and declares as heretics all the Shiites can
as I want to say that you know I'm sure you're gonna tell me where I'm wrong I
don't think I'm totally wrong here but I think what you're saying is so the Jews
we believe that the god of Torah Yahweh our God Torah was is D God the
Christians say no after yeah after the reign of yahwah and there was jesus and
i think i think that's kind of what you say was the sunni-shia saying that that
the Sunnis who believe they are the traditionalist they believe they are the
yahwah like they're like the sort of like the jews and the shia are sort of
like the christians they think that after the rate of viy became the reign
of Jesus how wrong is that I think that's wrong you know this is not like
between Jews and Jews and Christians it this is much more subtle actually it is
based on on who has the right to succeed the Prophet Mohammed should it still be
charismatic you know the way you know the house of Jacob becomes like is
promised by God to be there with leaders of their above Israelites the Shiites
believe the house of Prophet Muhammad the successor should come from that
chasm a decline the swing we say no it is open to Muslim consensus
whoever Muslims can agree upon that person would be illegal and there is a
lot of arguments between the first three followers of Prophet Muhammad
and and the last one that is ally the shared video he should have been the
first and so the Shiites and Sunnis have this kind of subtle disagreement on the
principle of leadership shears are more charismatic and Sunnis go more with
tribal agreement so either all right is there of course being everything in the
science the optimist I want to find a the the bright side of all this all
right so for example in theory the Saudi you see not every single Saudi is
necessarily Wahab and necessarily a violent a supporter of violence and even
the royal family in theory are allies of the United States nonetheless there's
good evidence that substantial members of the royal family Prince Mandar Bob
andar Bush was a active supporter of the 9/11 is one of the 9/11 hijackers so how
does it work out that the royal family which depends for its support on the
west the Saudi National Guard is trained by the US all their weapons come from
the US how is it that their royal family ends
up be supporting people who are supporting terrorism let's just say so
you know the funny thing is that this House of Saud after the discovery of oil
in Saudi Arabia again that is another historical accident Saudis were not
always wealthy they were dirt poor it was only there the discovery of oil that
made them so enormously powerful in terms of their financial resources and
the financial resources they basically have befriended and partly corrupted
American aristocracy including our presidential heirs odds aristocracies
the house of Bush the house of Clinton the house of Obama and now the house of
Trump they all have been suborned by the Saudi
money these are Cindy wealthy people and it's not only
are leaders you know the Silicon Valley when NBS they're the famous a guy who
ordered the murder of keshavjee wait just for fun whose MVS the case
with someone has been watching the conference of Saudi Arabia the son of
the King King Salman who order according to CIA's records and everybody else he
ordered the murder of this keshavjee and his American junkie in the Turkish Saudi
embassy in Turkey he was strangled and cut up into pieces right so still you
know President Trump came out and said yes but we are not going to allow that
to interfere with our business interests so basically what I'm saying is that
this enormous economic resource has allowed Saudis to even corrupt the
American business the American leadership political leadership the
American journalist the amount of money they are throwing around in Washington
DC the amount of money they are throwing around to buy and an established TV
channels there was a famous scandal when Saudis boom spending hundreds of
millions of dollars by the estate TV station to broadcast their own
propaganda against Iran in Persia in England this just came out so they can
he can buy a lot of influence with their money and they can corrupt other people
with their money so but on the other hand you can't separate the Saudis in
the Saudi royal family these princes from the Wahhabi some of them are less
religious than others some are more Osama bin Laden himself like the entire
family are secular and into hedonistic practices but he happened to kind of
find God and become this ascetic Prince millionaire jihadist in in Afghanistan
so it is not strange that you would find connections between their perpetrators
of 9/11 fifteen out of the nineteen were Saudi
nationals Saudis citizens as and many of them were were supported by various you
know degrees of separation that said from there from the royal family but
Americans decided the American Bush the house of Bush decided to basically brush
this under the rug and allow and disallow any revelations of the
connections between the Saudis and the events of 9/11 so on the bright side hey
on the bright side and say what if there is one there is a bright side there is
absolutely right as you know as we were chatting about earlier there was just
last year a the families of the victims of 9/11 or granted mission by US courts
to go forward with a lawsuit against certain Saudi nationals for their
support prince bond arming one of them for the support of the 9/11 hijackers
and I assume rooted in the fact that as you correctly point out 15 of the 19
were Saudis so that they're in even now and I was further saying that it is an
optimistic note that even now for the birther is roundly excoriated by even
some Republicans for his unwillingness to accept the conclusions of the US
intelligence now did now tell me say what what is a silver lining
well the silver lining is that there may there there's there are there's public
relations pressure against the Saudi support of terrorism as in people even
Republicans criticized me I hope for example I would argue I would posit to
you my dear friend that you could argue that the murder of khashoggi was a
terrorist act that was a it was violence intended to have a specific PR effect as
in chilling any possible public criticism
of the house of saud is that unfair on my call it terrorism but it is it is a
regular tyrannical oppression of the journalists and that the Saudis have
been doing for years and years this just this just got out and got out of hand
because he happened to be an American green hawk card holder and is an writer
for for Washington Post other than that you know they have been doing this
forever but we don't hear about it it's not a scandal but this one is came a
scandal I mean they waged a war on Yemen a murderous war full of you know Walter
a war crimes created the worst humanitarian disaster in the world and
he didn't have the effect that the murder of the shocked jihad what did
Stalin say about the omelet no no about that 25 mil one man's death is a tragedy
yes is a statistic but again I I call it a silver lining is that one because it's
more public it's more this being more public and more roundly criticized it's
easier to fight against because we can see it more clearly and to the fact that
the US legal system one of the more robust legal systems around on its good
days has now has cleared the way or to a certain is then cleared the way for
victims American victims of Saudi supported terror to hit him in a pie
bond this is a little bit of a silver lining no I would say it's it's a very
very you really have to be extremely optimistic to consider that to be light
at the end of the table okay I'm just saying the optimist okay
granted that is if you wanted to end with a bitter note of optimism I'm gonna
let you let me just think my ace buddy the Sultan of sociality
sorry I think it would be fun to do this do it a little bit more
but a little more depth about this what I want to thank all the folks for are
getting nick and impaired and URL again for listening and so we'll see you
hopefully next week we can chat a little more about that whatever is happening
interesting in the news in sociology absolutely let's do it
thank you my dear brother Chuck you soon
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