Please go to one hour and 11 minutes, where the English Translation starts
Please go to one hour and 11 minutes, where the English Translation starts
Please go to one hour and 11 minutes, where the English Translation starts
Please go to one hour and 11 minutes, where the English Translation startsFan: At the time, white played the extension here.
Fan: At the time, white played the extension here.
Fan: What came after is the interesting part, as black connected.
Fan: This reminds of me the first game played by Ke Jie in Wu Zhen(Summit).
Fan: When AG played a cut with gote.
Chang: A move that seemed unnecessary at first, but left a lot of Aji for later.
Chang: This connection here does look a bit similar.
Chang: Even though it is gote, and white can't cut here anyway, but it strengthened its position and created some potential.
Fan: Most importantly, locally it is alive, the cut won't kill black.
Liu: Which is why this connection here seemed strange. Very interesting.
Liu: Even though the cut won't kill black, but afterwards the group above become quite weak(thin).
Chang: Because white can retain the option to cut, and play it later when it does work.
Chang: The empty turn(monkey move) black can play here is not entirely without value.
Liu: So what is liberty situation like, after black plays the turn?
Fan: If black plays the turn, white would play the large knight move.
Chang: White would definitely tenuki here, because if white responds, then the turn would be sente.
Chang: If so, there is no reason for black to connect here in the first place. As the cut here would become gote, therefore no longer has any value.
Chang: But as Fan Hui said earlier, white tenukis. Let's see.
Fan: AG says that the exchange here definitely favours white, as that turn didn't manage to force anything.
Chang: Of course, if the turn didn't do anything, then it is obvious that it was a bad move.
Chang: It all comes down to what happens inside here after it played it.
Chang: For example if Black pushes through here and white connects.
Chang: Black reduces liberty here, and white reduces liberty here.
Chang: Black continues, white reinforces here.
Chang: Black atari.
Fan: It is a Ko.
Chang: But this is not a Ko black would want to start so easily.
Fan: It is a direct Ko.
Chang: And also that black's shape is heavier than white's.
Fan: Black also played more moves here.
Chang: Right, white already played on the outside, and all black got inside was a Ko.
Fan: Not only does Black get a Ko, white also get to play more stones on the outside.
Chang: There is just too little value here.
Liu: It cost black an extra move to start the Ko fight.
Chang: Since you have to play the turn to begin with.
Liu: So black can't start a Ko fight here. Therefore white is not afraid of black pushing through here.
Liu: Does black has any other options?
Chang: What if Black plays here, a warikomi.
Liu: Then white has to connect here.
Chang: Then I will start reducing liberties here.
Chang: And if White responds in the same way.
Fan: If white responds in the same way...
Chang: If so, after the atari you are dead, because you can't reduce the liberty here due to the cut.
Chang: You reinforce and I atari here, and you are dead.
Liu: Let's see the difference here.
Liu: So we tried to push through at first.
Chang: And that ends in a Ko.
Chang: But if the black stone position changes, then white dies.
Chang: White obviously can't play like this.
Fan: But can white respond differently?
Liu: Let's see.
Fan: It seems that white can't play the atari there.
Fan: White can perhaps play the atekomi here.
Liu: So there is that option also.
Chang: So playing that atari is perhaps reducing its own liberty.
Chang: If say black reinforces with a tiger mouth, white does the same.
Fan: This ends in both being alive.
Chang: No matter how you reduce the liberties here, the situation will end in both being alive.
Chang: You play here, he will respond there, You atari, he will take. It is the same.
Chang: You can't atari directly either, as white has this cut.
Chang: Now inside, white has 3 liberties, black can't reduce white's liberty over here, and over there you take two and he will take one back.
Chang: There is no way to reduce white's liberty. Very interesting.
Fan: Everything is just enough.
Liu: So white has to preserve the atari here to survive, a very important detail.
Chang: So this atari is like a liberty for both sides, one must not play it carelessly. At least, white can choose to preserve it.
Liu: So when black tries to kill white, white can connect here, which is sente.
Chang: If that move is sente, it could use it to extend the liberty.
Chang: But most importantly, the way to reduce liberty here is very intriguing.
Chang: If black plays warikomi, then atari here won't work either.
Chang: Because if they play here, here and here.
Chang: When you connect here, I can reduce the liberty here.
Liu: So you are one liberty short.
Chang: In other words, instead of playing the atari, you went to reduce the liberty over on the right.
Chang: You end up in the same situation where you can't reduce white's liberty without reducing your own.
Chang: So the liberty situation here is...
Liu: Very interesting.
Liu: So in conclusion, even though the turn here from black left some problems for white, it is not an immediate threat for white, and therefore it is not sente.
Liu: Neither the push or warikomi can really threaten white.
Chang: Right, if you push, White is not afraid of the Ko.
Chang: Then there is the atekomi here to deal with the warikomi.
Chang: Perhaps there is a chance for black to win a sente on the outside, but there is no way for black to kill white.
Fan: So there is still the cut, which means the turn there is no good.
Fan: In the actual game, Black did push through first, then connected.
Chang: Because before connecting, the pushing through is a necessary step.
Chang: As in theory, white can always create the Ko and tries to kill black.
Chang: White reduces liberty here, black plays here.
Chang: White atari, Black plays here.
Fan: And we get an approaching Ko.
Chang: If white really forces the issue, it can kill black. But it needs an extra move, so it is too slow.
Chang: How ever if you don't push through first, and white plays atari.
Chang: If now black pushes through, white can ignore it and play to reduce liberty here.
Fan: So it saves you a move.
Chang: Now it has two liberties over here, taking this stone now creates a direct Ko.
Chang: Even easier, white plays the tiger mouth, then black plays here and white atari. Then like this...
Chang: Still a direct Ko.
Chang: So in term of move order, it was necessary.
Fan: Or it will leave problems for black.
Chang: In other words, if you were planning to connect here, which would make white's group of four stones lighter, the necessary order of play is to push through first before the connection.
Fan: So it was not a random occurrence.
Chang: Right, sometimes it looks random, but I feel that AG is in fact improving.
Chang: Perhaps our judgment is being affected too much by what we used to remember about AG. When it used to play a lot of sente exchanges for no apparent reason before, which we thought the reason was to simplifying the board positions, perhaps it has something to do with simplying the monte-carlo search tree etc.
Chang: But based on what we have seen lately from the later versions of AG, the accuracy of its calculations has definitely improved. So this order of play here is definitely not random.
People: ... (random stuff)
Fan: The next move white plays, is very interesting. White plays the jump here.
Chang: It wants to get some profit here.
Fan: At first glance, that does seem like it.
Fan: Black responded by extending over here. Not without reason of course, it probably has something to do with what happens after.
Liu: It could affect the position later when White plays the watari.
Chang: Right, this is one of those positions a pro player would probably hesitate to play.
Chang: From the watari point of view, if white plays watari, it is immediately connected, black will no longer be able to play this move, as white can play atari here or here.
Chang: If black plays the move first, and white plays watari later, it allows black the potential to play the wedge later.
Chang: It is possible black will want to start a fight there. And if so, it is hard to tell what the corner will look like later, and that move may no longer be sente.
Chang: Which is why it played the move first, but the move itself is causing a one point loss locally.
Liu: Because compares to the situation when black plays the extension there, white would have gained one more point.
Chang: This has to do with the fact that white can never maximize the territory here in the corner like this, with all six territories, because once the outside liberties are filled, black can invade the 2-2 point, and suddenly it is both being alive.
Chang: So at most it has 5 territories there, plus the 2 here, 7 points.
Chang: But if black plays the way it did, now white has 4 territories on the side, and 4 here, 8 points.
Chang: One point difference. For a pro player, a 1 point difference is sometimes hard to swallow, at least when the situation is still unclear.
Liu: It is painful for a pro player. It is probably painful for AG as well.
Fan: Of course, when most of the time the difference between winning and losing is only half point.
Fan: Based on what happens later, it seems black has already planned to let white play the watari, and the move here is no longer point losing.
Chang: Situation like this is often difficult for a human player. It may cost me a point here, but what if I no longer get the opportunity to play it when a fight occurs later. So do I play it or not.
Fan: In the actual game, the move black played next is very interesting.
Fan: Black didn't play on this side, but played over here instead.
Liu: It didn't try to kill off the white stone here.
Fan: Yes, instead it chose to play over here.
Chang: Does this have anything to do with the connection it played earlier?
Fan: Probably yes.
Fan: White then played a two space jump. White's shape looks pretty good here.
Chang: The diagonal move here could be a sente, but black didn't play it either.
Fan: In the game, black plays kosumi here, then kosumi here.
Liu: A very strange shape.
Fan: These three stones look very strange from black.
Chang: Right, this looks very different from what a human player would play.
Chang: I don't think a human pro player would play like this under the circumstance.
Chang: I think a knight's move is more likely, because based on the situation, as Fan Hui said earlier, both side are still fairly equal at this point.
Chang: A move like this, if a human player plays like that, he probably knows that he has lost. Playing the knight's move would result in a definite loss, and not just a pro player, probably any player would not play the game out that will result in a slow death.
Chang: So if the knight's move was definitely a loss, then I may as well attack first. Perhaps it won't work, but there is no way I'm going to let you win without putting up a fight.
Fan: Should we assess the situation first. Is there any change to the number of territories compares to earlier?
Chang: Compares to earlier, the only difference is that black may have gained five territories over here.
Chang: And we may have overestimated the points over here.
Chang: Because we counted everything in the area before, but now at most you can only surround this here, as white now has more stones on the outside.
Chang: So black probably still has the roughly the same amount of territories.
Chang/Liu: White on the other hand, the three pieces together is still 20 or so territories, including ten points here, total of 30 or so.
Chang: Is it possible that at this point, AG favours white?
Fan: I was intrigued as well during this point of the game, and wondered what would AG have done if black played the knight's move.
Fan: Its response was very interesting. AG thought that after the knight's move, black would be in a bad shape, and that the knight's move was problematic.
Fan: White's response was surprising to me as well, it just attached.
Chang: If black extends...
Liu: White attach again...
Chang: Normally you would keep going.
Fan: White would attach again.
Fan: Black would jump, and white continues.
Fan: It would allow black to play into this direction.
Liu: Black will have to play diagonal here.
Fan: White would probably play a move over there.
Liu: Something like this...
Fan: Something like that.
Fan: If we count the territories now, what would the situation be like?
Fan: So white has lost the territories down there.
Liu: White still has slightly over a dozen points over here.
Liu: Black gained around 5 points over here.
Liu: But on this edge.
Chang: If you try to surround it. The whole board all together is slightly less than 50.
Chang: If white still has close to 20 over here, then slightly over a dozen over there, together a bit over 30, and probably more than 10 points in the center.
Chang: Because if we count that as black territory, white will have some sente moves here.
Liu: White's territory in the center seems much larger than initially expected.
Liu: The kosumi here is sente.
Liu: The knight's move here is also sente.
Liu: It is also causing a lot of problem for black.
Liu: It is not going to be easy for black to connect.
Chang: Oh, it seems there is some weakness here in black's shape.
Chang: It will be problematic for black to connect.
Liu: Push here perhaps...
Chang: Not going to work.
*Mumble*Chang: What if I play a crude move like this.
Liu: Then black probably won't be able to connect.
Chang: Not to mention, this connection here perhaps... is sente.
Liu: If so, then this knight's move will sever the connection between the black groups.
Chang: In addition, if that move is sente, and there is enough Ko threats, It is even possible for white to start a Ko fight.
Liu: Let's see, if black plays here, it seems like the only option.
Chang: Then I just play here.
Liu: White probably has over 20 points here.
Chang/Fan: Even not counting here, white already have 50 points, it will be difficult for black to pay the Komi.
Chang: Which is why AG thinks the situation is not very favourable for black anymore.
Chang: Then perhaps when we thought the situation was still even, it was in fact better for white already.
Fan: AG still believes the situation is about equal right now.
Chang: It still thinks that?
Fan: Yes, it thinks that this direction the black took was wrong.
Chang: So it is saying that this move is wrong, not that the situation was bad.
Fan: The situation is still very even, yes.
Fan: It believes that if black plays in this direction and allows white to strengthen itself, then the situation would have deteriorated.
Chang: I've a question right now, if that extension over there means black's only response is to connect, then that move is way too valuable.
Chang: And my earlier assessment about the potential of the black group and the white group towards center was probably not accurate.
Chang: And if, before the invasion, we consider as if white just played an extension, then I would much rather play white at this point.
Chang: Before when I considered both side were fairly equal, I did not take these two moves into consideration.
Chang: So I thought both sides were fairly equal.
Chang: If black invades, white can't play here. Or I can play the hane and stand.
Chang: I can even sacrifice the stones.
Chang: So this knight's move here from white was a very good move.
Chang: Plus this extension here. So looking at these few exchanges, the situation seems to have changed.
Chang: So after considering these two moves, at least personally, I much rather play white here.
Fan: The biggest surprise to me was that I thought white's whole strategy was trying to surround this territory over here. Yet, white didn't seem to hesitate at all when it steered the black wall directly into its own territory, and still thinks that it is winning.
Chang: This is indeed very peculiar. I think one of the important reasons was probably that it thought it couldn't surround the territory from this direction.
Chang: It is perhaps difficult to surround because, if it tries something like this, black will invade.
Fan: It could easily end up with no point at all given the black wall here.
Chang: But if you play the jump here, and let the black play in the center first.
Fan: So the problem is still in the center.
Chang: So looking back at the situation from before, we both play a line of stones here, then few more on the side, white will get almost 20 points. In addition, the move here is causing black a lot of problems. It may even be able to fully sever black's connection.
Fan: If black allows white to have a thick shape, it is going to be problematic.
Liu: I feel that given the situation, there are a lot of possible plays for white, including playing in the center, or the bottom, or trying to invade over there.
Liu: Most pro player would know that the key to the game at this point, is the thickness of the shapes.
Liu: The white group over here is in fact not very thick. Moves like the kosumi-tsuke here, or play here. The black group over on this side isn't very thick either.
Liu: So the key to winning in the second half of the game will depend on the thickness of their shapes.
Chang: Adding to that, the more I look at it, the more I feel this position here is not where you want to surround your territory.
Chang: Even though it looks very wide, black can invade and attach underneath, black can always make it very painful for white by playing the kosumi-tsuke here.
Chang: White will have to block, and black can form the tiger mouth. You've to extend, and black will kill the 4 stones on the right etc.
Chang: So if we play this out as we did before, pushing a line of stone downwards, now white can extend if black plays the diagonal attachment.
Chang: I could let you breakthrough now. All I need is to surround on the third line. This territory here is not as big as we initially thought.
Fan: It is as if the territory looks big, but if you try to surround it, it becomes smaller. It is difficult for both sides to try to make a play there.
Chang: Black won't play the attachment now either, because white can block, then it won't play over here anymore.
Chang: There is also another consideration here. Perhaps black is indeed worried about the connection here.
Fan: It is a weakness, and that peep will become useful then.
Chang: I could just play a few moves here first...
Liu: While keeping black's weakness in mind.
Chang: The cut here is probably going to sever black's connection.
Liu: So knowing the thickness of each other's shapes is going to be the key.
Liu: We usually have difficulty assessing that during the game.
Chang: If it was me playing, It is possible that play this jump here, but it is also possible to try to start surrounding the territory here.
Chang: If so, black would definitely invade.
Chang: Then suddenly the situation could turn very chaotic, perhaps I would be in a great position to win, but one mistake in the fight could lose you the game.
Fan: If somehow black manages to live inside there, then white will be in big trouble.
Chang: Yes, if white still plays the two space jump afterwards, black can simply play the diagonal attachment and prevent white from severing its connection. There won't be much white can do from there.
Fan: So this move in essence highlighted black group's weakness.
Liu: The biggest impression it gave me is that we all know the thickness is very important here, but how make your own groups thicker while exploiting your opponent's weakness.
Fan: That is the difficult part. It is all very vague.
Fan: So this move is quite interesting.
Liu: From everything we have seen so far, the 50 self-play games and even the 60 master games, the way it plays in the center really gave us a lot of inspiration when it comes to assessment of the center territories, and the direction one must take.
Chang: I mentioned this before as well, when it comes to the assessment of the center. As human players, our assessment is mostly based on instinct or feelings. Before we may not quite understand its way of thinking, but now as you said, after so many games, over 100 games all together, we could tell it has many new theories when it comes to tesuji's and joseki's, and secondly, the way it assess the value and situation in the center showed us that the center is often more important than we believed to be.
Liu: It has brought us much that we could learn from.
Fan: The more I look at this variation, the more I appreciate this move, which further explains why Black finally decided to breakout in this direction.
Chang: So my question is, does AG still think that the situation is even, even now?
Fan: Yes, even.
Chang: I thought white's win rate would be going up right about now.
Fan: Not at all, still 50-50.
Fan: Even after this kosumi here, and here. White still doesn't want to attach underneath there, because the situation is even.
Fan: If white thinks that the situation is in his favor, he may choose to attach, as he gained some points here.
Liu: So these three exchanges is an exchange of inside versus outside.
Chang: But the hane here is not without value.
Liu: What if I just play the hane here.
Fan: If you do, black will make some exchanges here.
Fan: It doesn't change the situation.
Fan: But then, it plays the diagonal attachment here.
Liu: You want to kill the four stones?
Fan: Well, we can talk about it, it is a matter of four or five stones.
Liu: Does it block here?
Fan: It believes that, those three extra stones there may not be very useful.
Chang: But, everyone has different feeling when it comes to thickness. Which is why it has such high win rate.
Chang: When it comes to the feeling of thickness, value worth, effectiveness...
Chang: Because if you can't stop this stone, you will realize that these three stones and these three here...
Chang: You sort of cut off your own escape route.
Chang: Let's say without those three stones, even if black played there, it is gote, I may not want to attach underneath.
Chang: So if I play here. I still have a move here.
Chang: So after those three exchanges, it looks as if white came out ahead here. But if these three and these three does not manage to create a good connection, then if black manages to breakthrough and sever the connection, perhaps the three stones here will turn into a weakness instead.
Chang: This move here is simply to connect.
Liu: It is an endgame move.
Chang: So the game still comes down to the thickness in the center. It is possible the difference will be quite large because of it.
Fan: If the game plays out like this, black will be ahead, and white will be in trouble.
Chang: Yes, if white can't stop this black stone here, then...
Liu: So playing a slow move like that attachment will...
Chang: The reason why we may play a move like that is because the exchange of inside versus outside, which looks as if we are forming a big territory with the three stones over there.
Chang: So we expect the black should be trying to invade. My feeling tells me it is going to be somewhere like here, or here.
Chang: I can connect here, and you will still have to find a way to invade.
Chang: And if I roughly make some calculations here, I don't even need to surround a large territory and black is probably...
Fan: Black's territory will shrink too.
Chang: Yes I play here and black's potential will be limited.
Chang: All these stones here are dame points, and the black group on the left isn't fully alive yet. Even if it did, I can play a sente move here, and my territory will be much better as well.
Fan: The hane here is worth a few points too.
Chang: If you invade on this side, the outcome is roughly the same. So I thought, this game, I have the advantage.
Chang: But you are telling me that, those three extra stones here are not thickness, but a weakness. It is cutting off my own escape route.
Chang: I mean if those three stones are here, then black has no chance to sever its connection.
Fan: You could even kill off the black here.
Chang: But they are here, just out of position to contain the black stone.
Chang: Instantly the thickness became a weakness.
Chang: So what it may look like a thick shape, but if there is no good way to connect, you could use the strong position of the black stones where it has no weakness to attack.
Fan: That was some excellent commentary and analysis by Chang Hao.
Chang: Sometimes the difference really is just a thin line.
Chang: If these two stones are here, then immediately this becomes a solid influence. But because they are here, white can't stop the black stone.
Chang: Now not only are these three stones incredibly heavy, white can't allow black to breakthrough, because these three stones have nowhere to run to.
Chang: It used to have some options, but you cut off your own escape route. Chang: It used to have some options, but you cut off your own escape route.
Liu: So three seconds ago what we thought was a thick shape and solid influence, three second later is being threatened with death. Liu: So three seconds ago what we thought was a thick shape and solid influence, three second later is being threatened with death.
Chang: All it took was a few exchanges.
END OF TRANSLATION
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