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- Welcome to "NASA EDGE."
- An inside and outside look at all things NASA.
- I tell you what, Blair, I'm so excited.
This is going to be the last tower rollback of the Delta II.
- Chris, it might get emotional.
After talking to several folks around here,
lots of people have worked on the Delta II
over the years. A lot of people
are here for that-- - That's right.
- --in addition to ICESat-2. Very special moment.
- Tell you what, over the course of the next hour,
we're gonna be talkin' to a lot of subject matter experts
about the ICESat-2 mission and the Delta II rocket.
And we have a very special guest.
For the first time on "NASA EDGE," we have
the Associate Administrator for the Science Mission
Directorate, Thomas Zurbuchen.
So I'm looking forward to talking with him.
- Yeah, pressure's on.
- It is. It is on.
And joining us now is Thomas Zurbuchen,
who's the Associate Administrator
for NASA Science Mission Directorate.
Thomas, great to have you on the show finally.
- I'm so glad to be here.
I watch you all the time right outside my office.
(laughs)
- You don't get sick of us, do you?
- Oh, no, no, it's-it's interesting.
Sometimes I get stuck there with my coffee
and listen to you.
- I tell you what, you know, NASA has a rich history
in science. What's science's role at NASA?
- Look, I mean, from the beginning, it's--
remember, it's our anniversary year.
From the beginning, science was an important part of NASA.
- Right. - Of course, we see
human exploration and discovery as
one and the same activities, two sides of
the same medal, right?
- Right. - And-and so-so for us,
we explore some places where we go with humans.
- Right. - And when we're there,
we do science that we've never done before.
And we're doing that right now.
And we're gonna do it as we go forward
into the next 60 years, to the Moon,
to Mars, and beyond.
- And-and speaking about science, let's focus on
Earth science. Because with ICESat-2,
you know, the Earth is a very complex,
dynamic system that we really don't understand
well yet, you know? How has ICESat-2 fit
within the Earth Science Program portfolio?
- So we have, right now, 105 missions in NASA Science
that we're working on.
Earth science is 39 of those.
- Wow. - 19 of them are,
right now, flying, and we're working on 20.
And of course, those numbers will switch.
Tomorrow, right? - Right, right.
- As we-- as we, uh, put one up there.
And so-so the NASA program focused on Earth science
is very robust.
And just like you said, the reason we have
so many missions is because we need them
to really understand that complex systems.
What we're-- what we're gonna look at with ICESat-2
affects our lives here in California, our lives
in Michigan, our lives in Washington D.C.
- Right. - In a direct fashion,
and everywhere else on Earth.
- Now, we-- now, we had a big year in science,
but we-we have a lot coming up in the next year or two.
What are some missions we can look forward to?
- Well, I'm really looking forward to just
some milestones like, uh, InSight arriving at Mars.
Of course, uh, kind of always a nerve wracking thing.
Remember, kind of humanity's batting 40%
on landing on Mars, right? - Right, right.
- So less than half the vehicles actually work.
The good news is that the team that has been
successful in all of them is in our corner.
- Right. - So it's always great
to have the best team in the world
right there, right?
So I really look forward to that.
We have other milestones, like arriving at Bennu
with, uh, OSIRIS-Rex. - Right.
- And at the end of the year, New Horizons is flying by
an object we've never seen.
You know, so we're full of discovery.
Many things are happening. You know, new launches.
OCO-3, uh, looking at the carbon dioxide
and other compounds in the atmosphere.
Many, uh, instruments coming up, including also ICON,
looking at the upper edge of the atmosphere, uh, too.
That's influenced by the atmosphere
and by space weather. - Well, Thomas,
I know you have a lot going on on your plate.
You're gonna be on console for-- throughout the flight--
the launch tomorrow?
- Yes, it's gonna be my first time on console.
I mean, of course, it's-- I-I'm always, uh,
excited to see, uh, the people work.
Because what makes missions successful is the team,
not one individual.
- Well, good luck with the launch tomorrow morning.
- Thank you so much.
- So Tom, you know, NASA's been studying
the cryosphere for a long time.
And ICESat is really sort of the main mission
in studying the cryosphere.
Tell me a little bit about ICESat.
- The first ICESat launched in 2003, and it was
on orbit until 2009.
The main purpose of ICESat was to measure changes
in the ice sheets.
Are they getting larger or are they getting smaller?
How are they changing?
And the way it did that was with a laser altimeter.
It sent out small pulses of laser light that
bounced off the surface of the Earth
and came back up to the spacecraft.
By timing how long that light takes to do
that round trip from the spacecraft to Earth
and back again, we can figure out how far away
or how near the surface of the Earth is.
And by measuring the height of the ice sheet
at the same place through time, you can measure whether
it's growing and getting closer to the spacecraft,
or is it getting smaller? And what we'd found
with the first ICESat was that, uh, Greenland is
changing quite a lot, particularly in the edges
of the glacier, that it's losing a lot of mass there,
where the ice sheet's getting smaller.
And that water's being lost to sea, to the ocean,
and, uh, causing sea level rise.
- Now, what happened between ICESat and ICESat-2?
I understand there was a bridge.
You had to-had to keep on taking measurements
between the fir-- uh, ICESat and ICESat-2?
- That's right. After the first
ICESat mission ended in 2009, we knew we had to
keep monitoring how the cryosphere was changing,
for ice sheets and for sea ice.
and ICESat-2 was on the horizon,
but was quite a ways away at that point.
So what NASA decided to do was to use an aircraft mission,
which they called Operation IceBridge,
to continue to monitor those places that
were changing rapidly.
They used the P-3 aircraft, as well as the DC-8.
They do about a month-long campaign or two-month-long
campaign each spring in the Arctic,
and a similar length campaign to monitor
places in Antarctica. - Yeah.
- With an airplane, you can fly many instruments.
So they use a laser altimeter
similar to what we use in space.
- Right. - As well as
radars and cameras to measure those places
in the cryosphere that are changing rapidly.
- Any ground instruments that you use to, uh,
to measure the-the elevations?
- You know, uh, places like Greenland and Antarctica
are huge. You can't really
credibly cover much of that on the ground.
They're just-- they're simply too big.
- Right. - But a natural question is
how do you know that the measurements
from the aircraft or from the spacecraft are correct?
- Okay. - So what we've done
is go to Antarctica, near the South Pole,
where all of the ground tracks from ICESat-2 converge.
ICESat-2 will be on orbit. It goes up to
88 degrees north and 88 degrees south
around the Earth. - Okay.
- So we went to 88 degrees south.
And we took some high-precision GPS instrumentation
to make a detailed survey of about
300 kilometers of the ice sheet.
- Okay. - Now, that survey is gonna be
one of our main reference data sets.
So when ICESat-2 passes overhead and gives us
some data from that area, we can compare the two
and see how we're doin'. Similarly, IceBridge,
the aircraft campaign, flies over that same stretch
of Antarctica, so we can compare
the ground base to the airborne, to the spacecraft.
- Okay, right. Now, I understand
ICESat-2 is a-- is a much better satellite,
and a much better instrument on board.
Tell me the difference between ICESat-2
and the original ICESat mission.
- You know, with the original ICESat, we, uh--
we had never done that before, have a laser in space
to measure changes in ice sheets.
- Right. - And we learned a ton.
We learned that the main action is around the edges
of the ice sheets. But as importantly,
we also learned that we could monitor
sea ice with that. And by measuring
the height of sea ice and comparing it with
the height of the ocean that you can see in these cracks
in the sea ice, you can figure out
how thick that-that sea ice is, how much is sticking up
out of the ocean. - Right.
- And we didn't even know we could do that, uh,
with the first ICESat before it launched.
- Right. - So for ICESat-2,
we used those lessons.
And ICESat-2 will do a much better job of measuring
changing glaciers around the edges, where
it's rough and it's steep, as well as measuring
the sea ice freeboard as that way to get at
the thickness of the sea ice.
- In addition to the cryosphere, I understand
ICESat-2 is gonna be taking elevations
of a number of areas around the-- around the globe.
What are-- what are some other things that ICESat-2 can do?
- So from the vantage point of space,
you really see the whole planet.
Although, uh, ICESat-2 is really designed to measure
changes in the cryosphere-- the ice sheets and sea ice--
uh, from the vantage point of space, you see forests.
We'll measure the height of oceans, height of deserts.
- Wow. - All over the whole planet.
We have data products that cover each of those different
types of surfaces. - Okay.
- We have vegetation data products, ocean height,
ice sheet height, the sea ice, et cetera.
The cryosphere is our primary objective.
So the other targets are-are secondary.
But we think they're gonna be really useful for, uh--
for those communities.
- Now, will you be able to predict, down the road,
I mean, just how much the Poles and how much ice
is-is melting, and how much of the-the ocean levels
are-are increasing over time? - Absolutely.
So with ICESat-1 and now with ICESat-2,
we'll be able to measure those changes in ice sheets,
and measure how much mass is being gained or lost
in different places, and how that's affecting sea level.
But you bring up a good point, that our data will allow
ice sheet modelers to make better predictions
of the future.
And the way they do that is by comparing
their model prediction for right now with our data.
So if a model is predicting that a glacier is changing
this fast or that fast, they can compare
their prediction with our data to see how the model is doing.
And by calibrating their models with data,
it gives us more confidence in their predictions
going forward, when they're predicting out
100 years or 200 years. If you're getting
the modern changes right, it gives you confidence
looking ahead.
- And we're back now with Kelly Brunt, uh,
a Science Team Member of ICESat-2.
How you doin', Kelly?
- I'm doin' really well. I'm excited.
- You know, Tom did a great job talking about the overview
of-of the Science Mission behind the ICESat-2.
What is your role, as a Science Team Member?
- I'm part of the Project Science Office.
And ultimately, my main responsibility is
associated with post-launch validation.
- Okay. - So I was on that mission
that-that Tom was on, in the Antarctic.
- Mm-hmm. - Uh, we go out
and we collect ground-based data,
which includes not only location in x,y space,
but also precise ground-based measurements
of-of the height. And we compare that
directly against the satellite data
that we'll be receiving later.
- Now, since you're an expert in working in-in
the cold environments, you know, Antarctica, uh-uh, Greenland,
how are the ice sheets doing right now?
- So the edges of our ice sheets, the parts
of the ice sheets that are in contact with both
the atmosphere, our warming atmosphere, our warming oceans,
we're losin' ice in those areas.
And we learned that with ICESat.
And we continue to measure those changes with IceBridge.
- Okay. - ICESat-2 will be
the next, uh, step in-in-in adding to
the time series of how these ice sheets are changing.
- Right. And-and I'm assuming, then,
that change between, let's say, the Antarctic,
uh, Antarctica, and then Greenland,
it's different, in terms of the-the percent change?
- Absolutely. - Okay.
- On top of that, the-the dynamic, uh, parts
of the change are-are very different.
In Antarctica, our loss is through, uh, mostly
calving events, big iceberg calving,
and melt from underneath the ice sheet,
where the ice sheet is in touch with the water.
In Greenland, it has to do more with surface melt,
and to a lesser degree calving.
But-but that basal stuff goes away.
In Greenland, the-the real story there is
the surface melt of our ice sheets.
- Now, I think a lot of people wanna know out there
what is it like working in Antarctica?
- It's fantastic. - Is it?
- I think, uh, it's not quite like going to space.
But it is a scene that not a lot of people get to see.
- Okay. - So it's very special.
- Mm-hmm. - It's-- yeah, it's cold.
But it's exciting and-and-and the-the work there is
rewarding in its own way. It's fantastic.
- Recommended vacation spot? - Absolutely, yeah.
- Oh-- - Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, base-- center of the ice sheet.
Get up high, where you can see everything.
(laughter) - Well, Kelly,
thank you so much for joining us today on the show.
- Thank you. - And-and good luck
with the launch tomorrow.
We're looking forward to that last Delta II rocket.
- Thank you so much. This was great.
- Donya, a lot has been made about the improvements
between the ICESat mission and the ICESat-2 mission.
You've been working primarily with the instrument,
the ATLAS instrument. - Mm-hmm.
- What is the ATLAS instrument?
And what are the improvements that
that instrument brings to this mission?
- ATLAS is, uh, a laser altimeter.
It's a instrument that is about the size of a smart car.
Uh, weighs about a half a ton.
And it has two lasers.
I like to call it a sophisticated stopwatch.
It can measure the changes in ice elevation
down to the width of a #2 pencil.
And the lasers actually fire from, let's say,
the distance from Washington D.C. to Cleveland
in 3.3 milliseconds. - Now, it's funny,
because that seems like it would have to be
a powerful laser to-to reach that distance.
But what I've heard is that it's a low-power laser.
How-how is this possible? - You can describe it
as a high-power laser and a low-power laser.
It's relatively, uh, a high-power laser.
But we spread the beam out so that when it reaches
the ground, the energy density is much lower.
- So the ATLAS laser is very sophisticated.
How does it actually get better or more data
for the ICESat-2 mission? - Sure.
One of the differences between ICESat and ICESat-2
is that ICESat-2 splits, uh, the laser into six beams.
That allows us to cover a larger area.
And it also allows us to have more discrete measurements
along the ground, which gives us higher granularity
and data in those measurements.
- So obviously, ICESat-2 not only is using
this more sophisticated instrument, but
it's getting a significant higher amount of data.
- Yes. - So how do you
process the data on the spacecraft
and get it to, uh, the ground stations?
- Oh, that's pretty exciting. I love talking
about this, 'cause it's pretty interesting.
So we have a-a very sophisticated--
I like to call it-- map on board.
It's actually the digital elevation model.
And our receiver algorithm team, as part of our testing,
they actually identify the area of interest
based on where we are over Earth.
And they're able to modulate the amount of data
that actually gets time tagged and dumped to the ground,
based on where we are, and how much data is needed
in order to be able to make an accurate measurement.
- You're really collecting data on the differences
you see, uh, from this map?
- Yes. So we're collecting data
not only on the differences as the observatory,
um, takes measurements. But we're also taking--
uh, modulating the amount of data
based on the surface type. So if you are
taking measurement over a flat surface,
a relatively flat surface, then you would need
less data than if you were taking a measurement
over a surface that had a lot more differences
in the terrain.
- There's so much to be impressed about with regard to
ATLAS and ICESat-2. - Mm-hmm.
- But what are you most proud of?
- Uh, when I think about it, um, there are-- there are
three-three things that I'm-I'm proud about
with respect to ATLAS.
It's one of the largest and most sophisticated instruments
that's been built here in house, at Goddard.
Took a large team in order to build that instrument.
We had about 350 people. And I can say that
it's one of the best teams that I've ever worked with.
- Mic, the last time you and I were here,
it was for the JPSS-1. We kept saying it was
the second-to-the-last Delta II tower rollback.
And now we're here.
And it is the final Delta II tower rollback.
How you feelin' now?
- I'll tell ya, it's a little emotional, uh,
to be out here, getting ready for
this final rollback. Uh, JPSS-1,
the penultimate, was, uh, a great, uh-- great rocket
and time to be here. But it's all about
ICESat-2, as we get ready
for a mobile service tower rollback.
Uh, the teams have done all their work.
They've prepped. They're doin'
their final walk-downs. They're removed
the ordinance pins. They're getting the vehicle
ready so that they can remove the tower
and, uh, prep for, uh, launch early this morning.
- Mic, let's talk about the configuration of
this Delta II rocket for the ICESat-2 mission.
- Yeah, this configuration's a little different than
what we saw on JPSS-1, uh, which was a 7920.
Tonight, for ICESat-2, we actually have a 7420.
It's a 7000 series Delta II.
Four meaning four graphite-epoxy solid rocket motors,
which help provide thrust with the RS-27 first stage
engine to get out of Earth's atmosphere.
The two, uh, references the second stage AJ10 engine,
which provides that, uh, boost for ICESat-2,
once it's into, uh, space. The zero, of course,
means no third stage on the ICESat-2 mission.
We're only, uh, requiring a second stage, two burn mission
to get into space and do the orbit it needs.
- Now, Mic, you and I have both attended
the Flight Readiness Review, where our Launch Director,
Tim Dunn, started talking to people about,
"What's your Delta II number?" And what he was insinuating
is, what's the first Delta II that you worked on?
And so, Mic, what was the first Delta II
that you worked on?
- So-so my first one was Delta 294, ICESat/CHIPSat,
the, uh, predecessor to I-- the ICESat-2 mission.
So I feel very, uh-- very well tonight,
being-- bookending both the science missions, uh,
with the original ICESat, and then
ICESat-2 launching tomorrow morning.
And you know, when we refer to the number of Deltas,
the Delta family has been numbered sequentially
since its inception.
And so that's what we refer to, is the number in a row.
ICESat-2 is going to be Delta 381.
And, uh, as Tim pointed out in our readiness reviews,
the Delta tent is a big tent, right?
And we welcome everybody into that.
So, uh, we have folks here that are
part of the 381 family.
But Tiffany, importantly, what was your number?
- My Delta II number was 261.
And that was Deep Space spacecraft.
And that was actually the beginning of
LSP's 20th anniversary. But for our audience
to participate, what is their Delta II number?
How can they figure that out?
- You can go on the internet, look up the Delta launches.
And what I would encourage you to do is figure out
what the first Delta II that you watched was,
and that's your Delta II number.
- Now, Mic, you got to interview a ULA subject matter
expert with part of the Delta program.
Let's check that out.
- I'm so excited to be here at the United Launch Alliance's,
uh, rocket factory. And the chance
to walk down this facility and-and see where
the historic Delta II has been produced.
Dana, that has to be exciting for you also,
this final Delta II coming up.
Can you tell me a little bit about yourself
and how you got started in this business?
- I got started at the very beginning, pri--
a little prior to Delta II in, uh, Pueblo, Colorado.
Started in Pueblo, Colorado. We started with
the last of the six Delta Is.
It was coming back from where President Reagan had decided
that we needed to bring back ATLAS and Delta again,
from the shuttle explosion.
And th-- we did the last six Delta Is.
As we were doin' that, we were workin' on
this new Delta II.
And it took a while for the first one.
I think it took us about 10 months in the factory
to build the first Delta II.
So it was kind of a conglomeration
of Delta I and Delta II.
And in Pueblo, we built about 120 Delta IIs in Pueblo.
And we transitioned here in 2004.
And we built another 30 or so Delta IIs here.
- Yeah, you talk a little about Pueblo--
Pueblo, Colorado, right?
The early Deltas, or Thor missions, which
Delta had evolved from, were built
in the Huntington Beach, California area.
And then in Pueblo, Colorado.
And then you talk a little bit about the transition here,
to Decatur, Alabama, where the Delta IIs
were made, right? - Yeah.
- Final Delta II, ICESat-2, that's out there
on the pad, that's gotta be really exciting.
Historic mission for us at NASA, and for
United Launch Alliance. Share a little bit
about, uh, what you've done to prepare that vehicle
for its final launch. - Well, first off,
I'm very, very fortunate today.
I've been able to work on every single Delta II.
And to prepare that launch, we-we took extra care
on the last four. We weren't in
full bore production. So we took extra time.
And the last four were very special to us.
And we spent adequate time. And they were special.
We knew they were the last ones.
- You know, McDonnell Douglas, who started the, uh, Thor,
uh, Delta IIs, Boeing, and then now United Launch Alliance,
a unique thing they did, right?
You work in the production area.
But whenever there were problems at the pad,
you guys got to travel down to the launch pads
and do repairs on the vehicle
as production engineers, right?
So tell me a little bit of how that was,
going to East Coast at, uh, Complex 17,
and the West Coast at Space Launch Complex 2.
- Oh, it was-- it was a great experience.
And they did that because we were experienced with
the build problems. And we put in all the parts.
So the thinking was, if it's more than
a simple change, we'll just get the guys out that
normally do it, and keep that experience base.
So it was spectacular when you go out
to the launch sites, to get to work on a launch site.
It was really special. - Awesome.
- And the-the whole group, we were always
kind of a small group. So we really weren't, like,
a job or anything. We were like a family.
- Yeah, you know, when we were walking' around,
what I noticed was how involved people were
with Delta II production, how excited they were
with the Delta II vehicle itself.
There's a lot of memories with it.
And you guys took a lot of pride in the work you did.
You-you mentioned you took a little bit longer time
on these last four. You know, NASA bought
these last four in 2012, for our four missions,
OCO-2, the Orbiting Carbon Observatory,
uh, SMAP, the Soil Moisture Mission,
and JPSS-1, our Joint Polar Satellite.
And now, of course, our last one, ICESat-2,
which is our ice monitor. - Right.
- We're excited to have Delta II launching these.
And you know, it's been a workhorse for NASA
over the years. And reliability.
Let's talk a little bit about reliability.
Delta II is one of the more reliable rockets
that's out there, right? Uh, you guys hold
the world record for, uh, most successful launches
in a row. - That's true.
And we're very proud of that.
And-and one of the things that help us get there
was-was science missions-- to me, personally,
science missions were very personal, because
I knew many, many times that it would take
30, 40 years for the technology to mature
before you could get a good satellite up
to do what you wanted to prove.
We knew that when we'd meet the scientists and stuff,
they'd come and look at the launch vehicle.
They had all their budget-- their whole career was
tied up in this one launch.
So we would try to make 'em as perfect as possible.
And-and we would be kind of OCD, goin' over 'em
and checkin' 'em. I'd drive people nuts.
But we'd-- our team, we'd put 'em together
and we'd-we'd just try to make the best product
we could. And in the science arena,
she's done probably 50-some science missions.
Eight or nine of those have gone to Mars.
Uh, I mean, when you get-- years ago, when you're workin'
on a Mars mission, you're like,
"Wow, this is kinda-- this is special.
"It's very special."
- You know, when ICESat-2 launches, uh, that will be
the 100th successful launch of a Delta II.
That's gotta be exciting for the folks at
United Launch Alliance and yourself, as part of
the production team. - Yes, it is.
It-it's quite an accomplishment.
It's, uh-- we're happy, and we're thrilled.
And we're all looking forward to that 100th mission.
Go Delta II.
- Five, four, three, two, one.
Liftoff of the final Delta II, launching nearly three decades
of science research and exploration missions,
lifting ICESat-2 on a quest
to explore the polar ice sheets
of our constantly-changing home planet.
- Well, we may have missed the tower rollback
for Delta II, but there you have it,
the 100th consecutive successful launch
of this historic Delta II rocket.
You're watching "NASA EDGE,"
an inside and outside look at all things NASA.
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